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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
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Posted - 2014.02.16 16:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
So what you are saying is that Guristas LP is currently worth 4-500isk (based on Rattlesnake price)
Supply/demand will make the Nestor cheaper and cheaper until its worth using. This WILL happen since these chips will drop and people will want to unload those. |
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
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Posted - 2014.02.18 04:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Smalltimer wrote:The Nestor is a beautiful looking ship without a cause. RR Nestor gang has no place in this game? 20-30 billion isk remote repping battleship gang. Now that would be something I'd like to see. You would have people bat phoning half of new eden just to ***** on the killmails. The dead nestors would make great for killboard stats. So yes RR Nestor gang certainly does have a place
20-30 billion gang isnt so extreme, sure if we are talking about 10-15 ships for that price (2b each) its a nice target, but if its 50 ships (400m each) with a strong spider tank you need to alpha to kill anything. Even with 10-15 ships you more or less need to alpha them to get a kill.
These ships can easily get 100-150k EHP before boosts/slaves and tank enough to survive a few max vindies shooting at them along with 7-800 dps |
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
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Posted - 2014.02.19 11:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
You wouldn't attack an rr Nestor fleet with vindicators. You'd use 50 Dominix or ishtars and alpha them from beyond their attack range.
Nestor will not work in a large fleet.
You wouldnt sit outside your attack range while beeing shot at either, unless your in 0.0/WH and your in a bubble...
Ill give you that, in a sniper vs close range fight the sniper comes out on top as long as they can keep range.
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Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
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Posted - 2014.02.20 07:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
Nobody would fly a 10-15man gang with Nestors for 2b each ship, but since this is a thread about new ways to get Nestor we can safely assume the price will get even lower. So cost is not a factor at this time since we have no idea where it will end up 
In that case, a 10-15man Nestor gang have around 10-17k tank. So in a 15 man gang you can EWAR 5 of them out of the fight and they still tank 10k dps.
This would mean that a 15 man gang use atleast 1-2 ships for EWAR and a few logi to get anywhere close to that tank. Leaving 10ish dps ships that have to do more than 10k dps total. With no EWAR or Logi ships you need over 1k dps from each of 15 ships,, and here you would clearly die as you have no chance to tank 15 drone ships with local tank.
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Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
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Posted - 2014.02.21 11:35:00 -
[5] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I think you'll find 15 tornadoes will alpha a Nestor in pretty much all standard configurations. A 15 man nestor squad would represent a lot of risk to the nestors without a lot more gained over a 15 man Dominix gang.
Particularly since the tornadoes could engage beyond drone control range.
[/quote]
So we are back to alpha ships beeing better against something with remote reps, and snipers that can dictate range over shorter ranged ships.
What it does have over a Dominix fleet is alot stronger tank (not EHP but tank over time)
That 15man tornado gang would need tha range to survive, let the Nestors get to close and its dead.
Fleets that are made with the sole purpose of killing Nestors will ofc win a fight, but show me ONE subcap ship that can take on a fleet its own size thats made to kill it. |
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
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Posted - 2014.02.21 23:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
Nestor also have a nice range bonus to RR, making it alot better suited than any other batttleship.
The fact that people have used RR battleships with 50% of the range seems to indicate that ther is a use for this kind of ship.
Biggest problem with the Nestor ATM is the price, with these chips dropping the price will drop to where its worth using the ship for whatever purpose they buyer see fit |
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
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Posted - 2014.02.21 23:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
RR will remain essentially a pve doctrine.
As long as there is a use for it, i dont care where it is.
Diffrence between 8 and 16km means that your less likely to be out of rep range of any ship.
That people have used RR BS in PvP with good effect before kind of prove that its possible to do even if its hard |
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
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Posted - 2014.02.21 23:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
So we agree its doable. Therfor the Nestor have a role it fullfill better than any other battleship in the game.
After that point, its all about how the meta changes over time and only time will tell how effective it will be.
Anyway, this is not realy the place to talk about Nestor usage in PvE/PvE but about what these changes may do with what impact these chips dropping wil have on economy and SoE ship usage/price |
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
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Posted - 2014.02.22 09:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Itago Gemulus wrote:So we agree its doable. Therfor the Nestor have a role it fullfill better than any other battleship in the game. A lot of things in EVE are "doable". Feasible and prudent (considering it's a $1.6-billion hull at present) are another thing entirely.
Considering we are posting in s thread about new ways to get the ship, that means price will be regulated by supply/demand and not by SoE LP price. If we can agree that there are roles this thing does better than other ships, and we know that this role have been used before with less effective ships, its only a matter of time before it get cheap enough to use |
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
6
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Posted - 2014.02.24 15:54:00 -
[10] - Quote
Looking at the role it have spesific bonus for (RR spider fleet), it should be worth 450m, or more than current Rattlesnake prices.
So we have arrived at the conclusion that the ship should be in the 4-500m area, something the current RS prices indicate is well within reason for a pirate BS using drops as its supply (or 4-500isk/lp from Guristas LP store if you like) |
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Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
6
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Posted - 2014.02.24 16:18:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Itago Gemulus wrote:
So we have arrived at the conclusion that the ship should be in the 4-500m area, something the current RS prices indicate is well within reason for a pirate BS using drops as its supply (or 4-500isk/lp from Guristas LP store if you like)
I agree with your estimate of a clearing price. Where we diverge is the subject of whether this is acceptable for a brand new ship. What we're essentially saying is that the dear sisters have invested heavily in brand new tech, committing resources and time with the spectacular result of.... ... inventing something that's no better than a ship they can buy from the Guristas, or indeed any other second hand ship merchant. Why bother?
If we follow earlier design goal (to lazy to find and link), the devs are against going for stronger and stronger ships (the WoW method of you like) where you have to buy a new ship for every expansion just to not get stomped.
We agree on a spesific role for the ship, and we also agree that the price for it is well within reason when we look at current ships ingame (and chips dropping to get Nestor BPC from)
We have no idea how much time/effort/resources SoE spent on this ship, and since im not into RP i have no way to find any resonable number for any of those. |
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
6
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Posted - 2014.02.24 16:42:00 -
[12] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Im not saying that the Nestor is perfect where it is, but this is NOT the thread to talk aboutNestor stats, its about these ships dropping as a way to get you hands on one. To that end we have found that it would be worth the same or a little more than the current cheapest pirate BS = it seems like a good change.
Rebalance of pirate BS (and BLOPs for your cloaking idea) are yet to come, and that would be the right palce to ask for changes to the stats of a pirate BS (SoE may not be pirates, but its listed as pirate BS on the market)
For Stratios would most likely loose some value, but Vigilant (mini vindi) still cost 240m vs 300m for current Stratios.
Astero currently cost 85-90m and would likely drop to 50-65m (the price point for every other pirate frig) |
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
7
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Posted - 2014.02.28 14:08:00 -
[13] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Solutio Letum wrote:its still crap even if its cheap, get a rattle... that simple If what they have done to the Worm is any indication, I'm not sure the Snake is going to have the same charm.
So you saying 8 effective drones (that can actualy take a beating) and 50% dmg bonus to launchers would make the rs bad ?
Wrom is getting stronger drones, more missile dps, more shield, will be faster and keep its current drone bay. Without going into numbers, the same treatment for RS will make it stronger even if you like the charm of 5 drones... |
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
7
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Posted - 2014.03.01 02:10:00 -
[14] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Worm still has the least potential EHP, slowest (ship in class), highest sig, least agility and lost 50% of its drone bay.
The Rattlesnake;
6 effective drones - would put Heavy Drones about on par with a Rookie ship, slow, terrible damage application and easy to kill. Sentries, Great damage potential but a sitting duck for any sniper.
50% damage bonus to 4 Large Launchers (no RHML bonus), not too bad, gives you 6 unbonused launchers on a battleship (around 300 dps using cruise with all 5's).
When the Snake only has 50m drone bandwidth, it won't need 400m drone bay, so like the worm its drone bay size will be reduced accordingly. 200m drone bay, you need at least 4 or 5 of each type of drone your likely to need as losing 1 drone = losing close to 1/3rd of your dps.
Personally, I don't see the Snake getting the exact changes the Worm is, as that would give you the potential (with faction missiles) of around 1100dps with Wardens and cruise (current 869dps), 1500 dps with torps and gardes (current 985).
Not Saying the Snake will be any worse, just very different to what it is now and possibly not as versatile.
If somehow the Snake does get the exact treatment the Worm is up for, there is 1 more reason not to bother with the Nestor...
Assuming 6 effective on RS vs 8 on Worm is a very negative way of thinking, there is no current indication it hsould loose effective drones.
That 50% dmg bonus is to thermal/kinetic MISSILES, its not spesified onthe Worm so why should it be on the RS ?
Loosing 50% of your drone bay is a small price to pay for only using 2 drones, basicly 50m3 will do the same as 125m3 does now. That means 8 heavy drones (or 4 flights of heavy/sentry) that will have realy good EHP so you can actualy rep them, and good enough to make smartbombing/bombing runs way less effective.
Ofc the RS may get totaly diffrent changes than Worm, but we have NOTHING else to compare it to as thats the only Guristas ship with posted changes... |
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
7
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Posted - 2014.03.01 13:43:00 -
[15] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:[quote=Itago Gemulus]
I'm no math expert but I'm pretty sure 300% = 6 drones not 8.
Not sure what you mean by the thermal kinetic bonus not being specified on the Worm. The worm gets a bonus to thermal and kinetic missiles, no rocket bonus - If they follow the same trend with the Snake and give it a "50% Missile" bonus, it will not have a bonus to torps but will to RHML.
While the missile/torp bonus will make a big difference to the Snake, I'd like to see it extended to RHML
8 heavies and or sentries is somewhat limiting your viable target scope, my snake currently has 2 flights of sentries, lights, mediums and ecm drones in its drone bay. While repping sentries may be an option, your sitting still as are they, repping heavies is probably not an option, unless you have dedicated logi with you..
300% bonus means you add that 300% to your already 2 drones, 2+(300%*2) = 2+6 = 8
Did not know that torpedoes was not considered missiles, they do get bonus from any "missile" skill/module so i assumed any missile bonus would work on bouth short an long range missiles.
2 flights of sentries, liths and mediums take 80m3 for 2 drones, by keeping 200m3 (loosing 50% of drones bay like worm) you can easily do 4 flights on the same drones leaving 40m3 or enough for 2 flights of med ecm (or 4 flights of light ecm)
While 2 drones/sentries could be killed they would survive alot longer than current drones, for just EHP that means for every drone you loose you could have lost 4 drones (effective atleast) something that equal out to between 2 and 3 drones currently. Positive thing with that is you will still do full dps until that one drone is dead, and old drones would only be better for before the 3rd drone dies (where you would do 2/5 instead of 1/2 of your drone dps)
So all in all this change would give RS more dps, would take longer to kill off the drones (keeping your max dps for longer) and potensialy more flights of drones in your hold |
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
7
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Posted - 2014.03.02 02:20:00 -
[16] - Quote
[quote=Sgt Ocker
Ok, if it is in fact 8, the worm is getting a 150% boost to it DPS?
I would not expect that to be passed on to the other Guristas ships, Rattlesnake with 1680 DPS (@ 110k) ?? Plus with the bonus to hitpoints heavy drones with more EHP than a Firbolg??
Look at the way bonuses are worded, Rockets, Torps, LIght, Heavy, Cruise and RHML all have specific bonuses. On the worm it has been generalized, it also has not been clarified. There is a difference between a rocket a torpedo and a missile, maybe just an oversight on ccp's part.
[/quote]
No idea where you get 150% boost from, it already have 5 effective drones so its a 60% boost to drone dps, and 50% bonus to missile dps. Something that should work out to between 50% and 60% total dps bonus (to lazy to do the math atm)
I was sure "missile" bonus used to be on ships like raven/golem and most missile ships, but it looks like that have been changed :(
The diffrence between rocket/torpedo and missile is still that a rocket/torpedo IS a for of missile (more spesific than just missile)
where a missile would be rocket/torpedo, light/cruise missile and every other missile.
Worm may have gotten a general bonus to all missiles since it cant realy fit anything larger than frigate launchers anyway, but not limiting it to rocket or light missile does still lean toward long+short range missile systems for Gila/RS. |
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
7
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Posted - 2014.03.02 13:54:00 -
[17] - Quote
I totaly agree thast the proposed changes should hit test server asap, and seeing as there are very few critics in that thread we should see them on test server sooner rather than later.
Worm beeing to good or not is irrelevant to this thread atm, changes are not yet on test server and most likely Gila will have its pass before we get to the RS (winter or next summer is my guess) |
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